August 7, 2010

TZM/TVP Critic 'Anti Cultist' Exposed

This a response to 'anti cultist' post; "Quick response to Plan B From The Bacardi Room." I don't address all of his points because half way in my response, after doing some research, I found something that warrants no further waste of my time and energy. Instead anti cultist has some explaining to do since he exposes himself not as an objective researcher or innocent participant, but as an outright troll. Anti cultist's words are everywhere quoted.

There are other forms of cult in operation, cults of personality, cults of financial gain, political cults, there are varying kinds and each have their own particular agendas, most of which have a purpose in that the leadership is out to gain something from either its membership or the actions its membership directly do for them.

Well geesh anti cultist, to how many group structures does that apply in our society? Not that I agree that your definition automatically applies to the Zeitgeist Movement but using your definition many groups would fall into the category of a cult. Political parties, Teabaggers, church-goers, fans of a sports team. Do you go about calling all of them cult members as well? Nah, you just picked TZM and label it a cult because it's convenient. You do it because you're a debunker and want to see the movement disappear from its current format. That's your motivation for taking the cult-angle. Period.

Also if you can provide me with science venus project themselves has conducted to verify that their claims are factual, inclusive of the white papers and sources they have used, as well as the scientific experiments they have conducted with all their results and test conditions. Then show me the peer review process and full disclosure they have carried out with these documents and tests they have carried out. Of course here is where you will fail, because as everyone already knows there are none, they have none, and talking about other peoples science and conducting your own science are not the same thing.

What kind of science do you seek? Fresco and Meadows in a lab doing experiments? The Venus Project foremost is a social project, not a scientific one. Sure, TVP borrows science and papers from the world and shapes it into a social proposal and format. Complaining about that there isn't any hardcore science done by Fresco himself is relevant in this regard, how? Oh wait, you take this approach because you seek a method of criticizing TVP. Bravo anti cultist! The Venus Project, although started many years ago under a different name, basically just got rolling when Addendum came out. It is a work in progress! At this point it seeks membership in order to get the momentum going. Just be patience, with enough expertise, help and support I'm sure some real science can done in the near future. Until then, I don't see it the responsibility of TVP to meet every demand an impatient critic or debunker has who has no intention of helping out in the first place.

It is also disingenuous to read an introduction to a blog and bypass its critical content and then proceed to make a complete subjective analysis on it without any knowledge of it and not attempt to address its core critiques. Your argument here is weak since you present the intro page and do not present your readers with the actual data and facts presented as to why the cult mentality has been observed throughout the interactions with their leadership and membership. You fail to present your viewers with the actual posts given as to why they are acting like a cult. This is just weak Ed and you are simply biasing and prompting your readers into your own particular train of thought and not the actual objective multi faceted story and evidence.

Oh, I'm sorry anti cultist. I thought mentioning your posts called 'why this blog' and 'personal experiences' captured the essence of your beef with Zeitgeist quite well. Many, if not all of the elements of your critique against Zeitgeist are plainly visible in those posts. The thing also is; all you guys over at the CS forums who write pieces (which you also present on your blog) have many complaints. Addressing each and every one of them takes up some time. That is something I'm working on. No I don't consider my approach disingenuous. I clearly linked your blog and posts for everyone to see. I also addressed the cult claim, which I think is a load of bollox.

What the writer neglects to tell his readers here is in my blog I already state I was pro TVP/TZM and was very interested in the movement initially and was a very well versed and active member of the movement and forum. This again is another disingenuous attempt to undermine my original intentions of joining the movement and reasons for leaving the movement. Since the user has no idea exactly who I was on the movements forum he 100% can not verify his statements and it is merely speculative accusations with zero credit to them. Fail again Ed try again.


Ok, I'll try again. The thing is anti cultist, you claim to have been pro TVP/TZM yet I haven't seen one post over on the CS forum in that fashion. While opinions can change it's very unusual for people to do a 180 in this regard. Most of your contributions go like this;
(From 5 months ago)
Everything you need to know about this potential cult, including its refusal for financial transparency with evidence of dialogues between a member and Roxanne Meadows. The identity of Peter Joseph, The legal dispute and failing of trademarking of RBE by the venus project with documents, and other important facets they dont like discussing on their official forums. Ex members spill the beans on the inner workings and information not many know.

Ah thanks, yes sorry, did'nt mean to pester you guys with shit you already were aware of. Glad that people are reading this stuff anyway, these cabbages need throwing in the compost heap with the rest of the zany carroty cults.

That goes for the old fart Jacque as well. And before you try to defend grandad, he just plays with his kids toys, films them, and then uses other researchers materials to validate his thunerbird model world.

As a long time member who played the agree and disagree character I found out first hand what they liked and disliked, and what they did about your posts and accounts.


That last one made me go; 'hmm?'
That's begs the question were you really a genuine pro TZM/TVP to begin with?
But wait anti cultist, I can do better. . . . . . . . .

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Lets take a look at this post shall we, from the CS forums in the topic "What makes the Venus Project different from any other cult?" (Page 13.)
"You don't go in there calling them a cult and that they are all stupid. Apparently I am better at communicating my points to them than you. Since I have been one of the most vocal critics on there for over a year, I think my situation proves you wrong."

and this is not insulting ?

Considering you have absolutely no idea who i was on the forum.

I had many different accounts on there over the year + gone by.

I created a complete agreeing character who was all into the movement, then I created a final character who outright disagreed and said so.

Which do you think got into trouble the most ?
And might I add the disagreeable character was threatened with banning and being watched from the top level admins and mods.

I am well aware of how it works there ed.

Your experience and opinion on the matter is no more valuable than mine.

I also had a famous character in their movement, in fact one of the most respected members they ever had, talk about them lapping up people who agree with them.


So, were you really a pro TZM/TVP guy like you pretend out to be? I don't think so. Your post above is your own admission of trolling the Zeitgeist forum and creating characters in order to get responses. You should have mentioned that in your personal experiences blog post instead of telling stories that covered your own ass. The post above shows you're were one misleading s.o.b. over at the Zeitgeist forums. You had an agreeable character, a disagreeable character and a famous character?
Lets take a look at your words again Dr Jekyll;

What the writer neglects to tell his readers here is in my blog I already state I was pro TVP/TZM and was very interested in the movement initially and was a very well versed and active member of the movement and forum. This again is another disingenuous attempt to undermine my original intentions of joining the movement and reasons for leaving the movement. Since the user has no idea exactly who I was on the movements forum he 100% can not verify his statements and it is merely speculative accusations with zero credit to them. Fail again Ed try again.


Who is being disingenuous here? We have one version were you claim to be a (former) stand up member of the movement and forum, yet we also have a version where you admit creating different characters in order to solicit responses (a.k.a. trolling). Which one are you?
You know what never seizes to amaze me? Guys complaining about a forum, its moderators and rules while they were the ones adding to the chaos in the first place! Such people are pure hypocrites if you ask me. And you actually wonder why people get banned from a forum? Your actions and the actions of other trolls contributed to a forum imposing restrictions.
Yes, I questioned your sincerity and it turns out it was rightly so. Maybe you should give out the names you used on the Zeitgeist forums so that I (and others) can examine your conduct in greater detail. And don't try to sell your trolling exploits as some sociology study you were on. At this point all suspicion lies on you and your behavior which is plainly visible in all your contributions. I see no reason to address other points you raised at this time. Clearly the issue has become your motivation since you admit to having misled other contributors and moderators of the Zeitgeist forums by creating various disingenuous personalities.



Donath's definition of trolling;
Trolling is a game about identity deception, albeit one that is played without the consent of most of the players. The troll attempts to pass as a legitimate participant, sharing the group's common interests and concerns; the newsgroups members, if they are cognizant of trolls and other identity deceptions, attempt to both distinguish real from trolling postings, and upon judging a poster a troll, make the offending poster leave the group. Their success at the former depends on how well they — and the troll — understand identity cues; their success at the latter depends on whether the troll's enjoyment is sufficiently diminished or outweighed by the costs imposed by the group.
Trolls can be costly in several ways. A troll can disrupt the discussion on a newsgroup, disseminate bad advice, and damage the feeling of trust in the newsgroup community. Furthermore, in a group that has become sensitized to trolling — where the rate of deception is high — many honestly na├»ve questions may be quickly rejected as trollings. This can be quite off-putting to the new user who upon venturing a first posting is immediately bombarded with angry accusations. Even if the accusation is unfounded, being branded a troll is quite damaging to one's online reputation.

2 comments:

Anonymous said...

Thanks so much for helping to expose what these guys are doing. I'm working hard to expose their acts of coercion, and have added a link to your article to my blog at rbose.wordpress.com

Ed V. said...

Thank you also for your support. Just looked at your website and I'm sure we can work together on this. It's one thing if people are critical of TZM or TVP but when people are trying to tear it down by any means, like anti cultist does, it becomes the art of black propaganda. We must guard for and oppose that.